Biodynamic Wine List

[McLaren Vale Vine Doctor]

Just a question do you know of many biodynamic wines to seek out?

I know some of the obvious ones like Cullen, Castanga.

Who can list others worth looking at?

[Nayan]

DRC
Anne Claude Leflaive
Lalou Bize Leroy
Nicholas Joly

See here for some others.

[Matthew Moate]

What's Biodynamic? Is it related to Organic? If so Kalleske Wines are 100% Organic as certified by Australian Certified Organic. Matt

[n4sir]

Add Gemtree to the list of Aussies worth looking at.

[griff]

If you just want to look at good wineries Lark Hill and Carlei are a couple to add to your list.

cheers

Carl

[wine bloke]

What's Biodynamic? Is it related to Organic? If so Kalleske Wines are 100% Organic as certified by Australian Certified Organic. Matt

Matt, as far as I understand (from my ex hippie wife)


Biodynamic farming has many complex areas. And is based on the sound farming practice of growing produce organically whilst keeping the immediate and outside enviroments all in harmony.
It takes into account,

the balance of a farm lands ecosystem/ micro climate and then maintaince of the equilibrium. This could mean the use of the wright ground cover or the amount of foilage on the canopy etc...

the luna callendar is also plays a major part, with the appropriate farming practices like applying pesticides or fertilizer. These are timed to be in sync, with the cycle of the moon.

the use of naturally occurring substances on the land whilst trying to use minimal or no irrigation through the vineyard.


The benefits have not been proven beyound doubt, yet. But that claim to be little to no disease through the area, pest's and parasites are kept in check, tougher vines that are less likely to be stressed in severe conditions, even a balnce of the immediate micro climate in and around the vineyard.

this only touches on the subject,
and as I said, " as far as I understand".

Cheers, Wine Bloke

[Matthew Moate]

Thanks for that 'Wine Bloke'. I had heard of this type of thing before but didn't link it with biodynamic.

[michaelw]

Matt, as far as I understand (from my ex hippie wife)

So is it:
- your ex-wife who was a hippie;
- your ex-wife who remains a hippie or;
- your wife who was once a hippie?

[McLaren Vale Vine Doctor]

Max Allen has launched his BioDynamic Wine website :

http://www.redwhiteandgreen.com.au/

[steeley]

Matt, as far as I understand (from my ex hippie wife)


Biodynamic farming has many complex areas. And is based on the sound farming practice of growing produce organically whilst keeping the immediate and outside enviroments all in harmony.
It takes into account,

the balance of a farm lands ecosystem/ micro climate and then maintaince of the equilibrium. This could mean the use of the wright ground cover or the amount of foilage on the canopy etc...

the luna callendar is also plays a major part, with the appropriate farming practices like applying pesticides or fertilizer. These are timed to be in sync, with the cycle of the moon.

the use of naturally occurring substances on the land whilst trying to use minimal or no irrigation through the vineyard.


The benefits have not been proven beyound doubt, yet. But that claim to be little to no disease through the area, pest's and parasites are kept in check, tougher vines that are less likely to be stressed in severe conditions, even a balnce of the immediate micro climate in and around the vineyard.

this only touches on the subject,
and as I said, " as far as I understand".

Cheers, Wine Bloke

You are almost there and I think that you should do some further reading into the subject to gain a more whole understanding of the biodynamic method.

Nowhere in the biodynamic philosophy does it say that you use no or minimal irrigation.

It is really about keeping the soil alive and in balance and as a result anything that grows within this medium will grow to its full potential.

It is actually amazing that more growers are not implementing this practice really!

[wine bloke]

Matt, as far as I understand (from my ex hippie wife)

So is it:
- your ex-wife who was a hippie;
- your ex-wife who remains a hippie or;
- your wife who was once a hippie?

Thanks for that, my current and only wife: she reads this site
!!!

Cheers< Wine Bloke

[silkwood]

It is actually amazing that more growers are not implementing this practice really!

By "this practice" what exactly do you mean? If it's burying cow horns full of sh*t and sprinkling minute quantities of compost during moonlight, I'm not surprised more aren't jumping on board. Most growers would agree that looking after the soil and minimising chemicals can be a good thing but some concepts of 'Biodynamics" have trouble convincing people they are grounded in reality. On the other hand some takes on the subject simply reflect what may be taken as common sense (whatever that is).

What's your take on biodynamics, and why should I be more interested in wines produced from such a vineyard?

Cheers,

Mark

[steeley]

By "this practice" what exactly do you mean? If it's burying cow horns full of sh*t and sprinkling minute quantities of compost during moonlight, I'm not surprised more aren't jumping on board. Most growers would agree that looking after the soil and minimising chemicals can be a good thing but some concepts of 'Biodynamics" have trouble convincing people they are grounded in reality. On the other hand some takes on the subject simply reflect what may be taken as common sense (whatever that is).

What's your take on biodynamics, and why should I be more interested in wines produced from such a vineyard?

Cheers,

Mark

Well, Mark

Having been a consultant winemaker at Maison Chapoutier in Tain l'Hermitage and having sat down to lunch with Nicholas Joly of Coulee de Serrant (mind the lack of accents), I feel that I have the qualifications to put my two bobs worth in.

The first thing is that most Biodynamic sceptics do is take some of the fundamental aspects of Biodynamics down to a newtonian way of thinking. Its not really your fault if you havent done the research into the literature and don't have a thorough understanding of the subject.

Of course filling a cow horn full of manure and burying it during winter may seem ludicrous to many, but without understanding the philosophy behind it, which Rudolf Steiner succinctly defined in his Agriculture lectures, which I urge every interested party to study, one will continue to think of this as heresy and dismiss it.

Secondly Biodynamics has a huge focus on the life within the soil, if you have and sustain a healthy soil, anything that grows within it will benefit from that.

You only have to look at the research papers of Claude Bourginon from France a noted soil biologist, that when comparing soils from conventional versus those of biodynamic viticulture in the Burgundy region, the microbial life in the BD soils far outnumbered those found in conventional soils.

Obviously, increased microbial influence in the soil is going to be of benefit no matter what you are doing.

May I ask you do you beleive in the moon controlling tides?

Obviously there are forces at play with the water in the sea, these forces, "funnily enough" also have control on the moisture and life in the soil.

Therefore there are times when the forces are more intense or less intense on the earth.

That is one reason for putting the preparations out within the phases of the moon.

Having said that most wineries that are using biodynamics you would probably have an affinity for their wines, Henschke, Kalleske, Jasper Hill, Cullen.

So why would you buy a wine where you can taste the chemicals that were applied to the vine when you could taste the soil/terroir that nourished it?

[silkwood]

Steeley, don't get me wrong, I'm not suggesting there aren't some great wines put out by those who promote biodynamics, and there are (some) studies which show great results from following many of the practices involved, albeit no confirmed control studies that I can find. Nor am I taking a "Cartesian-Newtonian" reductionist viewpoint. In fact I fully believe looking after the soil in as natural way as possible can be of enormous benefit.

What I am asking is whether you (or anyone) can show reasons for preferring biodynamic practices over organic (which, incidentally also crosses over into faith-based practices)? The problem I have with the movement is that it often starts with some fair comment on wines produced this way with excellent results (though I haven't been able to find reports where people use biodynamics and make poor/average tipple, funny that). It's when people start to get annoyed simply because they are questioned on the benefits of some of the more unusual techniques and theories that I become sceptical. It's not that there isn't something in the theory(ies), its the defensiveness that gets me, and the lack of unemotional explanation. Much of an understanding of biodynamics also asks for a great deal of faith and a distinct ability to draw long bows on some conclusions. For example, have I heard of the moon influencing tides? Sure. Obviously therefore the moon has an influence on moisture and life in the soil...well maybe, but more than an earthworm moving around? How does that work?

Your comment was you are surprised more aren't jumping aboard. I'm not denying good wine is made using these techniques, and I'm impressed with the commitment to the greater environmental issues such practices engender. I'm simply pointing out I (and many many others) find it difficult to see the benefits of some of the more arcane and unusual practices. Maybe this is why more are not heading down this path.

Please don't be defensive, I genuinely would like to know more from someone who has a good understanding of the issue. I am sceptical, but that doesn't mean ignorant or unwilling to be educated.

Cheers,

Mark

PS I believe there is to be a discusion (debate?) on this issue at Tasting Australia this year.

PPS I can't say that I've tasted many of the fertiliser chemicals in my wine, though I also often miss TCA!

[steeley]

If you would like to look at some published research I would direct you towards the December 2005 edition of the American Journal of Enology and Viticulture, here you will find details regarding the research undertaken by Jennifer Reeve

She essentially has done a great deal of research comparing traditional organic viticulture and biodynamic viticulture, it makes for interesting reading.

"News Leaf" the journal of the Biodynamic Agriculture Australia is a fantastic resource which also demystifies a lot of the techniques and methodologies

Yes there is a talk regarding biodynamics at Tasting Australia

[kirragc]

I cant remember who it was now but a winemaker, quite well known, does his racking by the moon cycle.
Apparently his dad used to do it and he thought it bunk until he tried it and found the yeast would pack better at the bottom of the tank at certain times of the moon cycle.

Sure its unscientific and old world tech but if it works..............

[silkwood]

Wait a minute, Steeley, you make a statement like "Its not really your fault if you havent done the research into the literature and don't have a thorough understanding of the subject. " then give an example of exalted knowledge of which I am ignorant (you've heard of the moon influencing the tides?), then cop out by failing to explain the issue yourself, but provide a reference?

I don't mind not knowing something but I do mind patronising statements made by someone who doesn't follow up themselves. If you support a viewpoint which you can't prove, you have to accept it may or may not be accurate. Providing anecdotal evidence may be interesting, even persuasive, but it is far from definitive and is usually only supported by more (questionable) anecdotal data. You raised the issue of the moon's influence, you used it in a manner intended to put me in my place for not understanding. So now explain why it is in effect real.

Kirragc's point is a good one, if it works.. but if you can't explain why it works (or at least appears to, for some), perhaps accept that scepticism may be a healthy approach. Like I said before, I'm not suggesting good wine is not made by these practitioners, but damned if I'll accept this agricultural homoeopathy as valid theory without valid evidence. If it works for many, great, good wine and healthy environments ensue. But good wine is also made by many (most) who do not follow these practices, so "if it works" is only a partial answer to your statement that you can't understand why more aren't getting on board.

Mark

[steeley]

Sorry, if I came across as patronising, that is certainly not how I intended my statements to be received.

However, I will accept that great wine is made using conventional practices, but more often than not I struggle to find the vitality within these wines that I see in biodynamic wines coming from the same region, using the same varieties.

This is a subjective view, but allow me to put this to you.

The current research using currently accepted scientific principles, differences are in fact small on paper. They are certainly not anything that will convince many conventional scientists of the benefits. But, having said this is it appropriate to apply commonly accepted scientific method to something as diverse as Biodynamics?

The results are small but they are relatively consistent. The questions could be asked, are these small physical changes indicative of something larger happening on a deeper level?

Eg, if I am not feeling the best, I may be standing up straight and I might even be smiling (although sometimes when reading this forum this may not be the case). The difference in my physical posture and measurable exterior might be very slight when compared to when I have a sense of vitality. Nevertheless, most perceptive people would notice straight away that something was not quite right.

As human beings we are quite sensitive to these kinds of subtleties. What has this got to do with Science and Biodynamics. Science can give us the clues, however, science also strips us of our illusions, and when properly applied, can show us reality on a physical plane.

But it can also point us in he direction where it fails and where new methods need to be developed in order to answer the questions revealed.

Such new methods would train our ability to become finely tuned instruments for perceiving these subtle yet incredible powerful forces with which Biodynamics is active.

The above words are paraphrased from some of Jennifer Reeve's work at Washington State University.

A major problem that I see is that biodynamicists have to justify why they do what they do.

When the way I see it is that why conventional farmers (viticulturists included) don't have to justify to the consumers the reason why they have the need to put the agrochemicals, systemic fungicides and herbicides on their crops. All of which have a massively destructive effect on the life force in the micro and macro climates surrounding the areas of application?

With regards to the "exalted knowldge", I think I recommended before reading the works of Rudolf Steiner and also a really good book by Peter Proctor called Grasp the Nettle. These two books are really useful in helping to understand the whole deal with biodynamics.

I also suggest visting Max Allen's website www.redwhiteandgreen.com.au which is quite good too.

[Andre]

Just 5 hectars (from a total of 25) on DRC are run as "byodinamic". Aubert de Villaine said he does not use the special preparation of the soil because he cannot discern any tangible difference with the wine.

[Andre]

Having said that most wineries that are using biodynamics you would probably have an affinity for their wines, Henschke, Kalleske, Jasper Hill, Cullen.
So why would you buy a wine where you can taste the chemicals that were applied to the vine when you could taste the soil/terroir that nourished it?

I would love to know someone who can taste chemicals in any one of those wines in vintages prior to the use of "biodynamic" methods.
Maybe we can get a statement from the producers saying that their wines "do not taste chemicals anymore".

[kirragc]

The benefits that I see to Biodynamic methods are actually rather commercial.

Frinstance, every chemical I dont spray, fertigate etc is something I dont have to pay for.

In succesful Bio sites the soils are amazingly healthy, its weird to see 1000 of Ha of poor soil with a little oasis of fertility in the middle, that how some of these Bio sites look. They can supply all the nutrients required in a better form than modified soils. They support a better culture of microbes and insects than modified soils as well helping to moderate various pests.

You see vines with less health issues thus less ameliorating chemicals added and better access to water . The carrying capacity of the soil changes sometimes quite significantly.

Having said that there are some areas I wouldnt even consider doing vines in a Bio style. Dont forget that putting 10000 vines in the one place is not a biodynamic method its a monoculture.

BTW I am not a Bio convert and know bugger all about it, just saying what Ive seen. From what Ive been told its mostly a lot of common sense in regards to improving soil health, at least with the teas etc. The moon thing seems to be just as much about keeping time than anything else. ie bury the eye of newt for 28 days.

[McLaren Vale Vine Doctor]

The benefits that I see to Biodynamic methods are actually rather commercial.

Frinstance, every chemical I dont spray, fertigate etc is something I dont have to pay for.

Actually one of the reasons BioD hasn't caught on more is its reliance on labour (eg. preparing solutions, peppering etc) which is a serious cost especially on a large scale where 'the conventional way' is more conclusive to 'just use a tractor.'

Otherwise I totally agree with what you are saying and I am supportive of Bio Dynamics for its health / quality benefits.